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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 11, 2010 3:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Yikes--not this again! I refuse--utterly refuse to lay down and take it (implied "it's all good!").

Good friend, if we cannot compare supposed "super jam bands" of their time and day, what are we reduced to? All narrative? All opinion? There must, there absolutely must be something more to it than this...

Now, you know me well enough to know I am not saying we will ever arrive at "truth" (there ain't none), nor even a scale of "good to bad" and so forth...and thus, perhaps we talk past one another yet again...? But truly, I do think such exercises are about all that makes everything we do here worthwhile...well, maybe coming round to viewing you as good a friend as I've never met tops it, but you get my drift...

Thanks though for chiming in; and you too, Rich; appreciate the link!

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 11, 2010 3:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Peace, aged warrior. I was taking the easy (lazy?) way out. It never was, or could be, a contest. How can you compare a power trio with a two drum, two guitar,two keyboard, and bass line up? The dynamics are totally different. But if we do have to make comparisons I'll take Billy K's rock solid control over Ginger B's beat the damn thing into submission aggression any time. Phil v. Jack is harder - but I think Phil edges it for innovative bass playing (singing is reluctantly another matter - I really miss Phil's yelps from the early years). Clapton/Garcia? How can you compare? 67/68 one was as much a force of nature as the other, but they were aiming for different things.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 12, 2010 6:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Hey, on just Jack vs Phil, given Phil's long time frame, I agree, but taken in a 2 yr snap shot, the more I listen to what Jack did in some of these extended jams, adding in the singing, harmonica, kybds, and the rest, he does impress...on just bass, esp watching him on some of the docu flicks, I am not sure there isn't anything he couldn't have done if asked to play the same songs as anyone else...he really appears effortless, confident, and in complete control...

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 12, 2010 8:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

"I am not sure there isn't anything he couldn't have done if asked to play the same songs as anyone else...he really appears effortless, confident, and in complete control..."

Come on. Couldn't you just as easily have said that about Phil? And let's not forget that Lesh learned the bass after joining the Dead, whereas Bruce was playing jazz bass for maybe ten years before Cream came along. Given those extra years under Bruce's belt I'd say 68 Phil holds up very well indeed against 68 Jack.

(I just had to remind myself that JB is actually the younger man, a fact that had slipped my mind, but which probably has no bearing on the discussion.)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 12, 2010 11:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Yes, I suppose this is where your apples and oranges gets in the way of the comparisons I love...sad for me, but true. Nonetheless, I charge blindly ahead, as always...

I could say that Phil's musical backgrd since the late 50s gives him a great deal to go on, just like JB. And, I do agree Phil could probably have done most anything, like JB did, in 68, but when I made that comment, I was defending JB, if you follow, since I don't think others would necessarily agree with me (ie, JOTS, Lou D, etc.).

So, they are different, surely, but the power, energy and magic that was CREAM makes me say something I never thought I would: I'd probably opt for that 10-15-67 show over my beloved 12-29-68 if I had the "time machine/one wish", and I bet you NEVER thought I'd say that!

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 12, 2010 11:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Hold on there, young fella, I'm not out in the orchard now. I was attempting in my doubtless cackhanded way to attend to your wishes and make a comparison of PL and JB's bass playing (all that counts for our needs, yes?).

Lesh's background equipped him conceptually very differently to the way Bruce's background equipped him. It did not, however, give him any idea where to put his fingers on the frets to produce the notes he wanted, unlike Bruce with his ten years of jazz playing. Nonetheless, Lesh could give a pretty damn good account of himself come 68, as I think we'd both agree. Anyway, I don't think you have any need to defend Bruce; his reputation is absolutely bombproof. I look forward to celebrating Jack's 70th too.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 12, 2010 12:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Agreed.

You know, what's really sad about some of this is that with those folks that died young (legion), there are also those like JB and Gbak that somehow took a path that didn't amt to nearly as much (IMHO) as the path that allowed the likes of our boys to do so much...This kind of comparative analysis is REALLY out there, but what I am getting at, is it the case that JB and GBak were assholes, or whatever explains their inability to get along, that forced long solo careers (those that follwed them thru the 70s-90s can correct me, please!) that really didn't give them the chances that our boys had (at least I think our boys had a long, productive career, regardless of my take on post 71).

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Mar 12, 2010 12:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Of course Bruce and Baker hated each other when they were in the Graham Bond Organisation (instrumental in Bruce leaving the group) and that antipathy never seems to have gone away entirely, even though they've collaborated a number of times over the decades (not just the Cream reunion but the Bruce Baker Moore trio, for example). As you say, I don't know of any serious falling out amongst members of the Grateful Dead. Post Dead differences of opinion are documented between Bob and Phil, but they seem to be rubbing along pretty well together now.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 12, 2010 11:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Interesting factoid linking JB & PL: JB had a liver transplant too!

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Mar 12, 2010 7:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Extended Jams? When did Jack ever jump into a peice longer then 20 minutes? Phil playing a 43 minute Dark Star into the remainder set at Cleve Convention '73 I believe places him well into the ranks as the best bass player ever . Entwhistle's Tommy set has my heart, but the sheer breadth of the DS has my reason.
As rtws stated . Its hard to compare the two. I would like to see a discussion somewhere on why Cream is considered the best power trio. Rush has that hands down. Clapton with his almighty blues chops is fine and good but Garcia would fly by the seat of his pants nite in and nite out. This is just my opinion , don't mean much.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 12, 2010 11:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

I think it matters, Hip--and yes, you can time them, but on some of these live shows, CREAM pull off some amazing, lengthy sequences, which sure, don't amt to the same as a 40 min DS, but note for note, energy for energy, I'd say a 12 jam of theirs stacks up very well against a 30 min jam of ours, esp because except in the Eleven, eg, many of our jams have a lot of "space" in them if you follow (not latter day space, just lack of intense playing...).

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Mar 12, 2010 6:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

I'm with you hippie64---when I think of trios, I think of Rush (even if they are Canadian!)

I'm hoping some of our musicallly-trained brethren will chim with their thoghts on Rush. And for you Rush lovers, check out
http://tela.sugarmegs.org/alpha/r.html
Scroll down to Rush 79-82 shows

So, what say you: where does Rush stand?

TOOTMO

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Poster: hippie64 Date: Mar 12, 2010 7:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

To start with , besides Robert Hunters lyrics, I would have to place Neil"s close to the top of the heap for me. And his drumming , OMFG are you kidding me? Really the best in ALL facets of drum kit expertise. Don't you think.
By the ways Rush would layer there music, Alex I think does it extremely well, Its a very new age feel(?), if you catch my meaning. Its not born to the blues, its way more progressive, yet rocks old school.. Geddy , For a funnny looking dude, He can get real busy on stage, Back in the early daze, that fender precision is almost as big as him.But the most ass kickin about Gedddy is what most people don't like and thats his voice. I love it! I seen the snakes and Arrows tour a few times and , The guy still has it! beltin' it out like it was 1977. WE ARE THE PRIEST OF THE TEMPLES OF SYRINX !!!! fucking the greatest power trio (barring The Experience) ever to step foot om stage.

That of course is my opinion

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Poster: billydlions Date: Mar 12, 2010 6:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Rush was an amazing band in the early 80's. Has there ever been a better drummer? Exit Stage Left was in regular rotation when I was a kid and I still listen occasionally. So I agree with you, although it's hard to compare with Cream since they weren't around very long. Both bands did manage to have such a full sound for only 3 members (although Geddy Lee was like 2 people)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 13, 2010 2:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Hey BD--if you see this, read above and help me out perhaps with a link or some such? Thanks for the tolerance...

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Poster: billydlions Date: Mar 13, 2010 4:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Here are some choice cuts:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKBLSkN2sRk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpCASVFyQoE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78D00dYOBrM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTD1QW3SM60

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 13, 2010 4:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Ah duh! Didn't even think of that possibility! But, better to have suggestions from a fan.

Thanks, B!

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Mar 12, 2010 6:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

You definitely need to check out that Sugarmegs link if you like Exit Stage Left. These concerts are much more raw.


TOOTMO

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 13, 2010 1:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Damn, TOOTs...I didn't want to write this...I started and stopped a couple of times. I may be accessing the "wrong" stuff...I knew them well, but to be frank, the term we had for them was "70s Butt Rock" (which really meant Kansas, Boston, you get the idea), and I just lumped them in with them...that was 30 yrs ago...

So, I went to a couple of sites where you can listen to the their hits, and there were 22 of them (these guys did amass a lot of POP sentiment, I'll tell you that...sorry, but that demoted them for me). OK, I went thru all 22 of them, although only about 25 sec of each.

Every one was identical--I really mean I'd flip between them and not be able to tell I had!...does only one guy sing? And none of them featured ANY thing along the line of instrumentation, so I assume I'd have to dig deeper...

Sorry to be so anti Rush, but boy, I just don't see it...and, you know, I love Canadians, eh? Truly.

Splain some more to me, cause I don't get it...

This is NOT meant to be a Rush Bash, and I hope no one joins in except to explain what I am missing that for folks that I value (ie, we share the DEAD for crying outloud), what is missing for me--is it my geezer status or something? Just too old?

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Mar 13, 2010 1:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Billy T.,
I'm hearin' ya but I'm fixinta head to NYC tomorrow and cannot go into the detail that I need at this moment.

Currently, I have the family convinced that we need to go to the NY Historical Society on Wed. (I hope I can keep a straight face when I "exclaim" "Would ya lookey there? It appears they got some kind of GD display goin' on---imagine that. What are the odds of that, Honey?")

And, since I am not a prolific contributor of much that is useful here, I have decided that my atonement for past transgressions will be a full-blown, honest, review of the NY archive. Will try to put it by next weekend. Till then, this is the TOOTMO over and out.


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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 13, 2010 2:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

Thx toots! Have a great time--hey, my kids may help out; they say I have to get their live stuff and that they are really good musical sorts...they said the "hits" just weren't my style, so that may be all it is...

Waiting to be schooled! Thanks for the help!

WT

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 11, 2010 8:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD; thanks one and all!

Sorry for the flip response--and yes, I do realize there are always apples and oranges in all of this. But you know my tendencies: comparative analysis is my bread and butter, and asking others what they think, like all the poor souls my sons bring home (to be honest, some have started to show signs they enjoy the exposure to things, amazingly, that their parents never provided...shame I say, shame on them!).

And thanks all the rest for the feedback; seems there is still quite a bit of love for CREAM amongst the DEAD fans hereabouts.

As BD and I babbled on before, if they do tour again, always worth checking out Winwood and Clapton for a Bl Faith esque taste of CREAM like sound, or maybe they'll even have another 05 reunion of the originals (as I say, I don't keep up with the news on this front so I have no clue).

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Poster: GennyBenni Date: Mar 11, 2010 9:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

I've always felt that Clapton's playing could never touch Garcia's. Clapton, for all his technical skill, never really pulled his playing into well-crafted phrases. To me it's just lick after lick after lick.

In contrast, every note that poured out of Jerry's guitar had a place and you constantly have the sense that he is attempting to mold something over time rather than just emitting a dazzling series of notes.

This post was modified by GennyBenni on 2010-03-12 05:26:15

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 12, 2010 6:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

I can agree with that in part, BUT in some of these jams, EC does some things that are truly amazing...built around what Baker and Bruce were doing at the time, I guess what've I've come round to is seeing them as much fuller and complex than I've given them the credit for in past yrs, though I always liked CREAM...listening to these shows, they are "limited" but no more than my 68-69 era DEAD were...and thus, as LiA notes, we can't really say what CREAM might have done if they experimented together all thru the 70s or what have you...might have become really bad for all we know...

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Mar 12, 2010 5:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: CREAM vs the DEAD

This!